There is a current movement that is attempting to bridge the gap between Islam and Christianity. We have to understand that there is not a shred of compatability. We are not brothers and we don't serve the same God.
Christians have to be bold to stand on the truth of the Gospel.
Wednesday, January 23, 2008
One Lord, One Faith and One Baptism. Piper sets the Record Straight
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36 comments:
To make certain,
You're not talking about the actions of Rick Warren/others who recently signed that document asking for peace between Muslims and Christians (at Yale University), are you? Or was it something else?
I guess I don't understand the danger of the dialogue. More importantly, this guy makes a direct comment that Muslims are all violent, and this is not true. Though I haven't research this movement of bridging the gap, I really don't think the movement is about trying to convert anyone or prove anyone wrong. It's more than likely an effort to discover the commonalities between the two faiths, in order to stop the prejudicial approaches and kill the stereo-typical thoughts, e.g. All Muslims are violent. Obviously this dialogue is not for the ears of those with weak belief in their faith. Just by listening, does not mean you have to accept what you hear. But, if you have 100% faith in what you know to be true, then what's the harm in trying to find a common ground to dialogue about. They are strong in their faith via the Holy Quran, just as Christians are strong in their faith via the Holy Bible. What's the commonality? Well, both books were written by men, who claim to be inspired by God.
Listen to the dialouge and look at the site. This isn't about peace or tolerance this is about putting Islam on equal footing with Christianity. Piper is saying that we don't have anything in common if we don't have Christ and esteem Him as the only begotten of the Father.
Charles, Piper didn't say that they were all violent. I think you may have heard something differently.
As we have talked about tolerance in the past Charles, I will say again. Muslims, Hindus, Buddisht, Wicans and Athiest, should all have equal rights given to them by God and government. A muslim should feel no threats that he/she can live peacefully amongst Chritians, practing their faith, providing for their families, and even taking advantage of Charity laws given to Christians.
However, tolerance doesn't mean I accept their faith as equal truth, and this is what Piper is addressing. We are not the same and WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON! They reject the very person we put ALL of our trust in. No Christ and I have a bogus faith and might as well go worship the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy.
Piper is addressing the "Christians" I use that term loosely who have signed this document agreeing that we have a lot in common. That is a lie. Either we are both TOTALLY WRONG or one of us are right, but we both can't be right. Regardless of our sincerity.
Here is the Site
http://www.acommonword.com/
"Either we are both TOTALLY WRONG or one of us are right, but we both can't be right. Regardless of our sincerity."
Amen Bro Lionel!
You know what I find interesting. Every time a Christian comes and says something that is definitive in nature, Ex.:"we do not believe in the same god as Islam", or something along those lines, people with a Universal "theology" come and respond with. "You only say that because you feel threatened by someone who is as staunch as you."
My very close friend M.(I won't finish his name because he could be endangered if I did)from Afghanistan and I have talked and he and my Dad have been as close as brothers for years and there is one thing that he will tell you. His family and mine do NOT believe the same thing.
Although he has whispered to Dad on the phone at times that he knows that the only mediator between God and man is Christ, but what am I talking about. He probably only said that because he felt threatened right? He would be disowned at best if his family knew what he said to Dad. He said so himself.
The similarity that we both believe what is said in books "written by men, who claim to be inspired by God" is irrelevant. Look at most any religion and there will be something of that nature at its core. To say that is common ground is as useless as saying that Golf and Baseball are practically the same because they both involve round flying projectiles.
Piper and many others did not say there is danger in dialog. There is great danger in claiming that we are not all that different in beliefs. You talk to any good Muslim and they will tell you that they do not believe Christ is the Son of God and that it is by His merit that men are saved and no other. Any similarities we might share despite this carry no weight. If we don't try and --lovingly--tell them this, then we really don't believe what we say we do.
Both religions pivot around the merit of one man. For the Christian, it is Christ Jesus. For the Muslim, it is Muhammed. But Christ is no mere man. The Quran was written by one man. The Holy Bible was written by many men through One God over periods of thousands of years and all agree. Man alone can't conjure such a thing. That is the difference.
Now, either you believe Christ or you believe Muhammed or some other creed. But they are mutually exclusive on the most important aspect and thus all similarities are rendered void.
You can't honestly call Jesus a good teacher and not also believe Him to be the Son of God and the propitiation for our sins. He claimed to be thus. If that was untrue He falls into the category of the worst liars or lunatics--not good teachers. If it is true, and you believe it to be so, then you will have no choice but to tell people that they follow a false hope.
Disbelieve me if you wish, it is not a meter of feeling threatened. It is a matter of being obligated.
I found a good quote for you Lionel.
"Tell me, you vain professor,when did you shed a tear for the deadness, hardness, unbelief, or earthliness of your heart? Do you think that such an easy religion can save you? If so, we may invert Christ's words and say,'Wide is the gate, and broad is the way,that leadeth to life, and many there be that go in there.'"
-JOHN FLAVEL
Hey Lionel and Sam,
Guys, I have a question. Is either of you, GOD? I mean, whenever you face opposition, you are so quick to say what God will and/or will not do. Also, obviously you both know absolutely nothing about Islam. Muslims do not reject Jesus. As a matter of fact, they hold Jesus to the highest regards.
It is this type of behavior that sparks wars. None of us...I repeat NONE OF US, have the right nor do we have the authority to command the creator. I find quite it disturbing that you guys feel that you can determine who's really Christian and who's not. You both feel that you can determine who's God is real and who is made up. Listen up guys, WE ALL SERVE THE SAME GOD. And no, GOD is not exclusive to just Christians. The truth is, you both serve a God that you have modeled after yourself. That is why you put so much limitation on God. Do you realize how elementary it sounds when you say your God is this and my God is that?
I know that I sound argumentative, but there is so much to be learned and shared amongst us. You are so quick to say that you have nothing in common with Muslims, but how do you know if you refuse to lend them you ear. This movement is about trying to come to a common place where you can worship Jesus and they can worship Allah (GOD). As I read Luke 6:27-36, it seems as though the Muslims follow the Bible better than you do. What are you so afraid of?
Charles let me ask you a question. Do you think it is wrong to call me and Sam wrong? How is it that you can speak for God (you did that when you said "we all serve the same God") but we can't. What gives you the right to call me wrong, but I can't call you wrong. Who's wrong you or me?
You my friend have just made truth (absolute) claims, and you made about 4 in your statement. Don't believe me? Here we go.
1. I repeat NONE OF US, have the right nor do we have the authority to command the creator
2.Listen up guys, WE ALL SERVE THE SAME GOD.
3.The truth is, you both serve a God that you have modeled after yourself. That is why you put so much limitation on God.
4.it seems as though the Muslims follow the Bible better than you do.
Finally, Muslims don't believe that Jesus Christ is God and that he is the only way to heaven. Nor do they believe that he rose from the Dead is alive today. So you shouldn't be so quick to JUDGE us brother. We may know a lot more about Islam than you think. Especially me, because I was a 5% for years. I have studied Islam quite a bit brother. So don't assume I don't know. Read my profile sometime you may learn a bit more about me.
Lionel,
Dude, are you serious? Have you really reduced yourself to distorting the words of others to fit your own unjust theory? Are you really going to tell me what I meant? Wow, how Godly of you. Where do I speak for God? At what point do I say God will do this or that. At what point do I ever lower someones level of religion because they don't believe as I do.
I don't speak for God, nor do I try. I share a belief here or there.
It's not about who right or who’s wrong. It is about what is right and what is wrong. People are trying to make an effort to discuss commonalities, and because they do this, you Lionel, choose to loosely call them Christians.
Let me share something with you brah, I accept that I am nowhere near perfection. I don't always get it right. I don’t know it all, as I am still a work in progress. Yet I’m at peace. My belief does not place me above anyone. In other words, I know how to check myself. You need to honestly do the same.
Finally, Muslims don't believe that Jesus Christ is God and that he is the only way to heaven. Nor do they believe that he rose from the Dead and is alive today. Okay Lionel, since you know more than I think you do, then tell me why they don't believe this. Come on Mr. know-it-all, enlighten us. Why is it so hard for you to fathom God or an angel speaking to Muhammad? Do you really believe that God spoke to the authors of the Bible? If God spoke to them, why couldn't God speak to anyone else? Does God still speak to people?
Charles I think it is insidious that you have so much to say on here but you are not willing to have a phone conversation in which that will much more transcend this silly email bantering. My number is 816 916 0840 and Lionel's is 972 816 7024. Sam give us yours and we can reason sensibly over the phone in which that will lessen the confusion and we can learn more about the God Charles serves versus the God of the infallible Word of God the Bible. Charles, we are interested in building relationships not just going back and forth by email. Just like I was conversing with a Jehovah's Witness the other day at my job. We were going back and forth for 2 and 3 weeks. Finally I said-let us look at the objective facts regarding their claims of Christ not being deity. I gave her 25 scriptures and I am waiting for her to get back with me. I also told her I wanted to meet the charlatan that continues to feed her these lies. Charles this is not something we are just pondering about the Lord Jesus Christ-we are 200% sure about the God in which we speak and we know you have no assurance and are tap dancing around these elementary issues. Man up bro and let us get in the corner and hash this thing out. Not for show or anything of the sort. It is important that we have Truth here or nothing else matters. Honestly guys(lionel and sam) correct me if I am wrong but I just think it is senseless to go back and forth with these things the way we do. Look at Christ and his dealings with the people he refuted. He was not interested in debating nor should we be. Yes God is patient and by God's grace Charles will repent and realize his total depravity before and infinitely Holy God but....Give me some thoughts on this?
That is definitely the problem Tyris. As I have said before, I am not here for debate, it is vain and idle babbling. There is nothing to debate. The fact is this, Charles, every time we say anything definitive as in anything that GOD ALREADY SAID in the Word, you tell us in some way or another that we are speaking for God, that we are arrogant and "know-it-all", that we don't know anything about any other religion because we're too afraid to see anything different and so on and so and so on.
Finally, Lionel is not here for debate, Tyris I know is not here for debate, and as stated, neither am I. The only one here that wants to debate is you Charles. (Charles prediction #1: you will say that I am putting words in your mouth again. Yes. I'm putting them BACK in your mouth. Taste foul?)
Charles, you hold that Christians who do not view any other religion as correct, for no true Christian can and still be remotely honest, are uninformed, unthinking, etc. You say specifically that we know nothing of Islam.
I, and my family, have eaten with Muslims, lived with Muslims, sheltered refugee wounded from Afghanistan, worked with and for Muslims, and spoken much with Muslims. You speak of what you do not know.
Holding Jesus in high regard is nothing. You claim to do that yet deny Who He really Is. High regard doesn't even get a glimpse of His toes.
I am not afraid of finding commonalities. That really wasn't the point. The problem is why are we finding commonalities? To what end? You would probably say peace. Yes? That is not an un-noble desire in and of itself, but it is not possible unless both completely disregard what they believe and teach about who their gods are. For one so "open", that is pretty insidious, to ultimately require Christians and Muslims to utterly ignore their foundational beliefs.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God, the One mediator between God and man. Muslims don't. My only concern should be to help Muslims not so much find "common ground", but to see the ground they stand on and that it will not last. Like it or not, that's what we believe.We tell them because we love them and want their fellowship. But that fellowship cannot continue into eternity with us both believing such obviously exclusive doctrines.
God save you Charles. It's like talking to my old self to talk to you.
Tyris and Lionel, I'll email you my number.
Soli Deo Gloria
And in case there is any confusion.
The Word of God:
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."--John 14:6
The Quran
"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every-one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."
Surah Al-Maida (5), Ayah 17
Guys,
I keep getting it wrong here. I know I may sound like an anti-Christian, but honestly this is not my religious persona. My only intent is primarily to expose other viewpoints. Are you wrong for believe in the faith that you do, NO. You are exactly where you should be in your totality.
I see faith's for what they are...beliefs. Is there a right one or an exclusive one... It's not really for me to say. I am continuously intrigued when I listen to people of different Faiths. Everyone is so sure that their belief is the way, and it makes me joyful to know that they've made efforts to understand something outside of themselves. The diversity of God is far beyond measure and no one can disprove it.
Guys, if I may, I humbly ask that you seek and find some humor in all of this. If you can't find humor, find comfort and relax. If I chose to lie on my couch, and my neighbors choose to only sit on theirs, then why should it bother me if I know I am using my couch differently? (Yeah, I already know… you feel this is a poor analogy) In other words, if others choose to believe differently, then let God/Jesus deal with them. If they have the ear to listen, then share your faith with them. But, please do not force your beliefs on anyone. And, No, I am not saying that you have. Am I asking you to accept other beliefs? No. That is clearly incomprehensible where you are concerned. Just try finding the Humanity in your endeavors. Seek and you shall find. Who are you, Really?
Charles,
If we don't do as we're commissioned and explain the Truth to all, including you, then we don't really believe what we say we. How many times does one have to say this to you?
If we sit on our couches and don't say anything, we CAN'T be honest in what we say believe. Here we stand, we literally can do no other.
Oh, that you could see through the fog of doubt and blinding clouds of anti-faith (I say that because you by admission don't believe anything but everything and therefore believe nothing).
And yet again. When faced with factual evidence for the standpoint provided to us by Scripture you provide 0 evidence. Zero.
You are right that it is not for you or me to say whether one doctrine is true or not. I didn't, Lionel didn't, Tyris didn't. The Word of God did. You're problem is with Him.
Again and continually you are in the prayers of us all whether you like it or not.
Okay Sam,
Here is where I am confused. Most Christians I know and dialogue with via the internet, are not against a dialogue with the Islamic faith to find potential commonalities. Why are you three so different? I'm not saying you're wrong, but your belief in Christianity is unlike I have seen.
Most logical people do not take the Bible in literal context as you. I recently shared some of our dialogues with one of my former instructor whom has a PhD. in Theology. I won't get into details, but when he read some of yours, Lionel's and Tyris's comments, he sort of giggled and said this is about as Christian as it gets. I truly agree. (BTW Obama has officially won the SC Democratic Primary)
Since you are truly a Christian, please show me the factual evidence you speak of. The Bible was indeed inspired by God, but it was not written by God. There were many scriptural books inspired by God that never made it into the Bible. This is fact. My question to all of you is why? It took an act of democracy (vote of people) to compose the Bible. Which means, humans, like you and me, decided what the word of God was and what wasn’t? But on what basis? Also, why did it take centuries after the Death of Jesus for the Bible to emerge? I'd really like to hear some answers. I don't mean sound as if I am challenging the Bible, but I do have valid questions. Who knows maybe I'm more lost than I realized. One last thing, interpret Luke 6:37 for me and explain how this does not apply to you Tyris and Lionel.
Charles,
You need to look at that verse in context.
Here is an exerpt from a commentary I have:
"It is no accident that Jesus' words against judgmentalism come right after the call to be merciful as God is. An unwillingness to be judgmental is almost a requirement for those who face persecution. Without it, lines of battle would become hardened and the ability to love the enemy would be destroyed. God is interested not in polemics but in offering the hope of restored relationship to the lost."
To "judge not" does not disallow opinion and factual observation. It is no more "logical" to say that I have no right to say that Green is Green or Red is Red when indeed they are--unless I simply don't want them to be right?
So, The thing that must be clear hear is that we believe what the Word says. This is not something we merit ourselves or take credit for as in "we believe, and you don't therefore we are better than you". If you take that from anything said here or elsewhere, you are manufacturing it there too for that is not what we espouse. No, we believe and are made better than we we were by HIS merit and no other cause. That is why we groe weary of "debating" with you. There is nothing debatable with such miraculous events as the saving of men's souls including our own. My own pride, like yours, blinded me to this for years. "I once was blind, but now I see"--John Newton.
If anything but a heartbroken love and yearning to have true fellowship and is compete friendship with you has been evident Charles, I have forgiveness to ask from God and you for my witness. But I do not believe it to be so. Do not think my affirmations of prayer are hollow and void. I am not as dishonest as that.
The text from Luke is cited so much in any argument to try and shoot down any Christian assessment that is proffered and is so grossly taken out of context that it should barely even merit response. However, I admonish you to actually read the text around it. It is talking about hypocrisy. A truly damnable thing and something I am definitely guilty and capable of and will not deny its protrusion even here. For that, I am grieved.
But you are blind to Christ at the moment and I am not wrong to say thus so long as I don 't condemn you to hell and thus let you be.
If you were to be stepping in front of a bus, would it not be judgmental for me to yell and say "STOP!!! You're going to be hit by that bus!!"? Would it not be the true evil to watch you as you step out into the tar and watch emotionless as your body is crushed under a weight so great and terrible that it smashes your blood and very life out and spread it in front everyone to witness your poor folly?
Charles, if I don't yell to you now and tell where you are pointed or where my dear Muslim friends are pointed, would I not be even more hideous in my unlove? That is what that text is talking about when it says "judge not". If I don't tell you about the bus, I don't love you and therefore do not carry the love of Christ in me. Even more so, if I do not tell you "judgementally" that you may just be headed for a crushing experience that makes you beg for a bus, I cannot have love.
And so, if I do not "judge" the direction and warn or encourage from Scripture, I am likewise bound to the same Judgment which makes me tremble. If I say nothing, I have then broken this command because I have rendered someone hopeless when it was not my place. Hence, our "debate".
Remember this next time you tell someone not to "judge".
In my most fervent prayer and continual hope through Christ who was and is able to seek and save.
Your Hopeful Brother
Sam,
I hope I wasn't asking too much by seeking your perspective on the questions (plural) that I asked. I am very puzzled as to why you only chose to address one. But, as far as that verse is concern about judging, your answer is a very unique one. But Sam, I did ask and you did answer. However, Why is it that you feel that I am so prideful? I mean, yes, I do take pride in what I do, but I am not so proud that I feel I am never wrong. On what basis am I so blind that I cannot see? Is this because I don't see thing as you do?
The original post addressed the effort of Christians and Muslim venturing to find their religious commonalities. Your initial responses were NO, this is not a good idea because we don't serve the same God. Well, Duhh, I'm pretty sure that Christians and Muslim have made that clear. However discussing commonalities is harmless. Trust me; I doubt that this was an effort to convert Christians to Islam. Now, for some reason none of you can get pass that.
According to the Bible, MATTHEW
7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Now Sam, if these are really God's words, then I advise you to take a look at yourself, like Lionel has done. Only Pride is concerned with who is right. Now, between you and I, who keep saying that the other is wrong? Go back, read any dialogue between us (Tyris should do this as well) and observe your word. Yet Sam, when it comes to me, your opinion of me is simply wrong. Sadly it is not your fault.
Realize that I don’t hold any religion to be the one true religion. I don’t follow any organized religion. Yet, I try to find the positive in all. Realize that I am not too concerned with who is right, but I am concerned with what is right. Have your faith, let others have theirs. Only this can lead to peaceful ends, through peaceful means.
Peace, peace. What is peace Charles? Is it living without passion and without Truth, accepting none by accepting all. Is peace what we do when we pick and choose what we like from this religion and disregard things of another not on the merit of the Truth but our own individual fickleness? Is peace the absence of all or most conflict between men on earth their whole lives? Wonderful that indeed would be but what then when we die? What is the peace? Who can find it?
Without Christ, there can be no true peace--in this life or the next.
And again Charles, you must look at the passages that you have cited in context.
blah blah blah blah. Let us get on the phone and hash this out. Lets discuss the commonalities between the God we serve and the god you serve Charles. When should we schedule the conference call? I have friday night free. We can go on and on about this and that. It is so much easier on the phone-no confusion and get to know each other more intimately.
Tyris,
Nice to hear from you again. I know you'd like a phone conversation, but I just don't see the point. What exactly do you think is going to happen, that isn't already happening? You kill any chance of civilized conversing with your "your God/my god (with a little g) theory. It's quite clear that neither one of us will be moved nor swayed, which is not my intention any way. This is the best form of communication for now... unless you can't read.
For now, I have to figure out what Sam means when he says "true peace". I and the rest of the world have always thought that Peace was self-explanatory. Either you have peace, or you have disturbance. True peace is new to me.
Also Tyris or Lionel, I asked Sam some questions in a previous post. He may have thought I was being challenging, but I wasn't. If you can share your thoughts on those questions, I believe it could shed a new light on some things I have yet to understand.
"True peace is new to me."
How true dear Charles.
I would love to share my answers. Let me know what time would be good so we can all talk about your GOD-thats better! Otherwise it is just words and no relationship. If there is no difference in what we are already doing, then why not talk about it via phone. Can you talk? We know we can all read. Charles you are funnyman. I like you bro. I hope I am not that intimidating. In Christ
Hey Charles,
Sorry for getting back to you so late. As it relates to your question and statement.
1. I never twisted your words once. I simply restated what you said. You told me it is intolerant for calling Islam or any other religion wrong, but in the same breath you are saying I am wrong and that is the very definition of intolerance that you scolded me for having.
2. I am not saying that it is impossible for an Angel to speak to Muhammed, Joseph Smith, the Jehovah Witnesses, Buddah, Ghandi or anyone else. What I am saying is one of us is right and the rest wrong or we are all wrong. An Angel can't give conflicting stories. Let me explain.
If an Angel told Muhammed to write the Quran then Christianity is a lie, it is not even remotely acceptable. Why? Great question. Because Angels at the empty tomb says "why are you looking for the living amongst the dead, the Jesus you look for has RISEN from the dead". Also in Acts 1 some more angels says "why do you stand gazing in the sky? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Do you see what I mean Charles. I am trying to get you to understand. That one of us (Islam/Christianity) is a hoax bro. I believe that it is Islam, others believe that it is Christianity. We both can be right, because these angels give conflicting stories.
Check this if a a police interrogates two witnesses and one describes the criminal as being 7'0 and 500 pounds and says. I have a picture right here to prove it I took it with my camera phone, I saw the whole thing and another witness says "no it was a woman and she was a midget and had long blonde hair, and I have to picture to prove it, I saw it all with my own eyes". The police will have to come to the conclusion that one is wrong or both is wrong, but they can't be right, if there is only one criminal and one crime.
The same goes for our faith and this is what I am trying to get you to understand Chalres. We both can be right bro. It is simply impossible. Either both of these angels lied or one lied, either or but you can't have it both ways.
Why do you have a hard time with accepting this fact. To reject this is intellectual suicide and you know it. This is all in love bro. I just want you to recognize Christianity is not compatiable with other religions. WE ARE EXCLUSIVE. Now we can be compatible in both being able to articulate, share, and minister to people without prejudice, fear of harm or ridicule. But we can't be compatible as it relates to a system of salvation. We just cant'
Hey Lionel,
First, thanks for the response. As these are your views on the questions I asked, I will respect them and not debate them. However, you did ask a question,
Why do I have a hard time with accepting this fact?
Well guys, what exactly is fact? It is my understanding that facts are indeed hard truths. A fact cannot be debated. But there is a difference between fact and faith. For instance: President John F. Kennedy was indeed assassinated. This is fact. It is believed that Lee Harvey Oswald was believed to have been the assassin. Why? Because it was presented to them by a source that they indeed trusted, i.e., they had faith in their sources. Did anyone witness Oswald shoot the President? No! Because no one saw who shot the President. You have those that believe he did, and those who believe he didn't. Yet for some reason the Government gave the public a story and only a few documents, but sealed the rest of the documents from the people, for decades.
So Lionel, I invite you to research two important words: Fact, and Faith.
You will find that truth and/or actual occurrences are associated with fact... not faith. And you will also find that Faith is always associated with Belief... not fact.
So, here is where I gather my understanding. It is Fact, that Christianity and Islam are both Faiths. It is Faith that causes people to associate Christianity and Islam with facts. To sum this up, just about everything you have said about Christianity is true, but only according to your Faith. And, it is your Faith in Christianity that causes you to have faith that the Bible is indeed the Word of God. Now, though this is fact speaking to you, I know you will probably somehow disagree. But know that there is a difference between what FACT is and what Faith is, and only a fool would even attempt to debate that... which is yet another fact.
Hey Charles,
Read the post again and look at what I am calling a fact. Let me give you an example
Fact: Christians believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead
Fact: Muslims do not.
Fact: Christians believe Jesus is God
Fact: Muslims believe this belief is worthy of Death, based off of the Quran
These are the facts I was referring to bro. Not that Jesus rose from the dead is a fact or that Jesus Christ is God is a fact, but that the fact is this is what Christians believe and Muslims outright reject.
That is why our faiths are not compatible and that is why you can't be a Christian unless you believe these things. Just like you can't be a Muslim without accepting the teachings of Muhammed. This isn't about their faith being wrong and ours being right, I am trying to help you understand that these two are not compatiable.
Do you see what I am saying. You can only be a Christian if you believe Christian doctrine and you can only be a Muslim if you believe Muslim doctrine. Not the opinion is that I believe that I am right and they are wrong. Now we can debate that, but we can't debate what makes someone a Christian and what doesn't that is solidified in objective truth.
Cool,
So I guess it is safe to say that religions are beliefs... and not fact... correct.
You got it Charles, smart dude you are. Now let us stop this childish bantering and talk about this. What times are good for you bro? We would all love to speak to you, put a voice to your unmatched intelligence. What do you say?
Nope! Incorrect. I was showing you what could be classified as a fact versus an opinion. Fact I am cute, but to others that may be an opinion. One that they are wrong about, but they do have options not to say I am good looking.
Christianity is a fact! Christ rose from the dead, and sits at the right hand of the Father, more alive than you and I. Just giving you some examples on why Muslims can't be Christians and vice versa.
"Fact I am cute, but to others that may be an opinion."
Amen to the second part.
Well put Lionel. The fact that Charles and others don't believe Christianity is not gauge to say that it is then subject to suggestion. Never guess. You have to know, I mean you have to KNOW what you're doing. This is too grand a thing to leave up to the suggestion of "well, nobody really knows since we weren't there" or something of like nature.
This point is valid to a degree for it is true that none of us were there to witness creation, the fall, the Exodus, the signs of the prophets, the Messiah Himself in His life, death, and complete resurrection. I wasn't there when all that happened, so I cannot know for certain what it looked like, smelled like, sounded like; but it happened nonetheless. I don't know how this faith that has been placed on me works in entirety; I don't know how I came to hear the music of Heaven; but I have the faith and I hear that music. It is undeniable and singular in origin.
I once was not only blind as Newton said, but also deaf and dumb. The things of God's grace were at best mere shadows and vapors seen through the bars of my solitary prison. I could not see for there was no Light. That sweet music was at best a faint clang and clamor unfamiliar to my contentedly miserable ears--like someone banging steel pots on a stone floor it sounded, but only because I could not hear it clearly through the the cold walls of my oppression.
I can tell you this: I wasn't there when the world was framed and the skies were called into being by a single breath. I wasn't there when all the heavenlies exploded into their furver. I wasn't there when the first elk bugled its wild exclaimation. I wasn't there when the temple veil split under the crushing weight of the anger and power of God almighty. I wasn't there when Christ said "Father forgive!" and in his last minutes cried out "It is finished!". I wasn't there when the stone rolled away and The God of Heaven and Earth came forth in all perfection and life and marched back to His Father in victory with His promise of return. I wasn't there.
But I was known nonetheless. I was known and it was for me that He pleaded "Father, forgive them!", and it was into my own eyes that He pierced His gaze and said "It is finished!". I was there for that. I was there that day I began to hear something sweet in the distance and noticed that I was no longer surrounded by concrete made with my own hands but rather under the shade of a tree and I heard that wonderful sound of true peace lapping at the shore of the ocean I had presently been carried over. I was there for that.
That is how I KNOW.
May God call to you and terrify you and love you Charles,
Amen
The Muslim can't say that. My obligation is to show him the Light as I was shown the light. The commonalities can be looked after that.
Guys,
What's the title of this blog?
Is it not "One Lord, One FAITH and One Baptism.
Fact: You believe you are cute.
It's not a fact that you are cute because your cuteness is base on the eyes of the beholder, which mean it's debatable.
Christianity is a Faith and nothing more.
Now watch carefully as I make your statement true...
Christianity is a fact! Christ rose from the dead, and sits at the right hand of the Father, more alive than you and I. Just giving you some examples on why Muslims can't be Christians and vice versa, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE ONLY.
There is nothing you can say or do to change this, so please kill the desperation act. You guys are so determined to be right, that you do not realize how foolish you sound. The only way you can ever make factual sense is if you add that "according to..." tag at the end of your statements.
E.G. You are cute, according to you. You have faith in your good looks. (This is a belief)
Now, it is a fact that you are a male. No one can debate that. Why? Because it is a fact.
See the difference...
Tyris, you hit it on the nose, I can’t talk. You are too intimidating.
Sam, ????? The Lord has terrified me…because I don’t believe as you do. When should I start calling you God Jr.?
Irrevocable commitment to any religion is not only intellectual suicide; it is positive unfaith because it closes the mind to any new vision of the world. Faith is, above all, openness – an act of trust in the unknown. – Alan Watts.
Irrevocable commitment to any religion is not only intellectual suicide; it is positive unfaith because it closes the mind to any new vision of the world. Faith is, above all, openness – an act of trust in the unknown. – Alan Watts.
Brothers,
"Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man."
Brothers,
"Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."
You finally got me Charles! You are right! I am desperate! Very Desperate, Extremely Desperate, Overly Desperate, Unshamefully Desperate.
Why?
I am desperate that you would see the TRUTH and be liberated from bondage bro. That may sound wierd and "FOOLISH", and I am willing to be foolish, desperate, idiotic, dumb, stupid, crazy, be labeled a bigot, self-righteous, narrow-minded, and a lunatic. None of those things matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is your salvation, which I have no power over. I can easily see why Paul said in Romans 9 "I wish that I may be cut off".
Why?
Because of the liberating power of the Gospel and joy and peace that the Holy Spirit brings into the lives of those He indwells. Because of the wonderful truth of being grafted into the Olive Tree, and being brought into a reconciled relationship with the creator of your soul.
So yeah I am all of the above. Not because I want something from you, but I want something FOR you. The only gain I get from you receiving the Gospel with a broken heart, is the fact that one more person, will be joining me to give Christ His due worship. I don't want your money, or anything else you can offer. I want you to be FOOLISH like Sam, Tyris and myself. FOOLISH enough to examine the facts of the Gospel and thus not neglecting the FACT that Christ really rose from the dead, thus He is the promised MESSIAH of the scriptures, the one the Jews missed, the Romans crucified, and the one that the media portrays as a hippie, white dude that looks like an 80's rocker in 1st century clothing, the weak guy skipping through dandelion fields, the weak little tooth fairy or the one that is right beside the easter egg bunny in Wal-Mart.
I want you to see the Lamb of God, the Lion of Judah, Emmanuel, the risen savior that is protrayed much stronger in Revelation 19. The one that is coming back to give rewards to those who accepted His FREE GRACE and punish those who rejected it. So yeah, I am desperate bro, but my desperation is for your good, not mine.
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